Vocaloid Wiki talk:Community Portal
Category:Community This is the general discussion page for the wiki! New founders should leave a nice welcome message and encourage new visitors and editors to leave a note to get the conversation started. ---- Spicing up the this Wiki I feel as though this wiki could be improved immensly considering the popularity of vocaloids. At present it appears to be little more than an outlet for indivduals with ideas of fan made vocaloids. I follow the Vocaloids to some extent on both Youtube and Nico Video and the Wiki doesn't really compliment them, nor the artists and musicians that make it all possible. So i'd like to propose some changes. 1) Producers and artists. Without the talent of the producers and artists there wouldn't be any vocaloid songs. There needs to be more pages devoted to them and their work. There are pages scattered around on them, but most if not all are orphaned pages made by one user with sparse infomation and each has links to their own youtube channel and nothing else. I admire the effort they've put in but it's not really in the spirit of Wiki, which stands for unbiased facts and quality. These pages can be greatly expanded upon with video details, links to the original videos on Nico and good quality youtube reprints. More info on the producers, what songs they have worked on, their history and many other aspects can be expanded upon. 2) Weekly Vocaloid Rankings. A very important part of the vocaloid scene but the page seems to be left to gather dust. Ommision of all the un-used rankings and a rethink of the structure is needed. A carbon copy of the rankings in text form is obviously not needed nor wanted. What would suit the rankings best? Text listing of 30-11 and descriptions of the the top 10? Only include the top 3/5/10? List format or description? Nico link to indivdual videos? 3) Fanmade Vocaloids. I'd say a good 80% of the vocaloids on this page i had never even heard of before coming to this Wiki. On more than half of them theres no refferences to outside material be it artistic or musical and often there is only a thumbnail of the character with a small personality/relationship description. I'd like to put this into discussion: What exacly makes a fanmade vocaloid, and furthermore, what level of community or indivdual creative development is needed to warrent a place in this Wiki? Is it a stick-man going 'laaa', or a fully fleshed all singing all dancing vocaloid with the approval of crypton or other Vocaloid2 licenceors? I give extreme examples but right now there is just about everything inbetween on this page and it could do with trimming. The structure could certainly be more streamlined. Catagorising them by name would only work if there were a dozen or so but there are clearly more than the current layout can handle. What i'd like to propose: consoldating all offically recognised fanmade vocaloids (Akita, Hachune and Yowane) under 1 heading, giving a brief summary of their origins and linking to their main page in the wiki. Specific groups should have enough info to warrent their own pages, such as the Heavy Metal versions of the vocaloids (Hagane group) and the Rainbow vocaloids and then hopefully be expanded upon there, detailing their own songs, info about their creators etc. much like the current main vocaloid characters pages. After this, the vocaloids should be catagorised into singing and non-singing, further subcatagorised into the vocaloids they are based off of (there should be far fewer with some trimming and the groups have been moved to their own pages). I don't feel Iku Acme and Nana Macne belong in this section as they are completly seperate from the vocaloids, and even more so from the fanbased ones. Perhaps a merge into Related programs? 4) Standardising song listings and their derivatives. Listing and describing each and every song created by vocaloids would be a never ending task, but if the Wiki is to be comprehensive in its use more infomation should be present on all songs and their derivatives. As an example, take Kagamine Rin's Kokoro. The only song listed on her her brothers main page should be the original Kokoro produced by relevent musicians and artists complete with a link to Nico video and a high quality reprint on Youtube. The current style is great and i beleive should be kept the same. There should also be a link to the songs main page. A carbon copy of the details provided on the vocaloid page should be made available on this page and clearly labelled as the original. After this, alterantives to the original song should be listed in the same manner, including a description (if needed) along with details of musicians, producers, artists and vocalists (for fandubs) and finally a link to Nico video and Youtube. Derivative's should include the various PV's, Fan dubs (Japanese, English or otherwise), off vocal tracks and variations done with other vocaloids. This should be the page which connects all the producers, musicians and artists together. Collaberations between various vocaloids (inclding singing fan-based vocaloids) should be filed under a seperate page detailing the various original works if more than one vocaloid is singing (the Kagamines would be exempt from this rule of course) and would then follow the same tree branching of the normal vocaloid songs. The overall goal of all this is to create a deep, profound source of infomation on almost anything related to the vocaloids, with the prime focus being on the original vocaloids and their songs. --Kaiseine 17:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC) :The "Producers and artists" were recently created, so I don't know the the intention of those pages so far. I mostly prefer third party sources used on them used yet they do not exist. :"'''Weekly Vocaloid Rankings" is dead, it hasn't been worked on a long time, basically the person who created it gave up. :"Fanmade Vocaloids" is the most baised page and for some reason more users are adding just because they can and their art is not even popular ever since the top page encourages them to do so. Most of these emerge from DevianArt. I normally try avoid editing that page to avoid removing legitimate a character since I never heard of then, again probably aren't even notable. :"Standardising song listings and their derivatives": It can be done, the problem is the copies on YouTube are a copyright violation and violates Terms of Service (of YouTube). Unfortunately NicoNico requires registration and not every one can register. :If you really want to change the pages, just do so and be bold and edit them, either way most of those pages need to be re-written. Just re-write as you see fit and use the talkpage of the article to discuss the changes that should be made and the ones you made. That way the editors know why it was changed and they can discuss the problems of the article you alerted them in. Antonio Lopez (talk) 16:07, 2 June 2009 (UTC) As for "Producer" articles, I wrote all past pages. Before I began to write, there were no articles of the producer informations in this Wiki at all. On the contrary, there are NOT the producer informations written in English to the large amount elsewhere besides my YT channel. Antonio Lopez-san, I understand what you want to say. However, we must increase many producers' informations articles as possible as we can do now immediately. Therefore I chose the simplest method. The simplest method is the copy from my YT channel. Of course, I don't mind who fill up more each articles. The links (to Nico and YT) of each individual song will be necessary in the future. However, at least I have no time to do so now. In Japanese "Hatsune Miku Wiki", there are more than 500 articles of producers and more than 4000 articles of songs. Compared to that, the information amount of this Vocaloid Wiki is equal to ZERO. Immediately we must increase articles of producers and songs by translating from Japanese origin to English. As for "Fanmade Vocaloids", I want to offer the following new rules. # It must be a character whose multiple videos have been produced by multiple producers and have been uploaded to Nico or YouTube actually. And the videos must be made by using actually the Vocaloid software by their producers. # If the characters (which meet the above criteria) have a video (in which the character appears mainly) which got more than 100,000 view counts in Nico or YouTube, we give an individual article page to the characters. # As for the characters which do not have enough view counts, all are listed in one page. In addition, the characters which do not meet the 1st criteria are not mentioned. If there are already mentioned characters which do not meet the criteria, they will be deleted. I thought these rules in order to prevent it from placing personal "fanmade Vocaloids" (or characters having no concrete song video). --Ymiyass900 04:31, 3 June 2009 (UTC) :You have a point there, I will expand my comment later in a few hours since I need rest for now. I really don't see a problem with the producers section I just wanted to see more external links on the subject. Antonio Lopez (talk) 04:40, 3 June 2009 (UTC) :::I don't need to expand my above comment, since there is no problem, then again the was never a problem with the pages. Antonio Lopez (talk) 14:30, 3 June 2009 (UTC) ::Apologies Ymiuass900, i did not realise the producer pages had been created literally in the last few days. Again, my humblist apologies. ::I agree with you on the Fanmade Vocaloids. Especially the first point. They are called VOCALoids afterall. Otherwise they'd be, umm, MUTEoids? There needs to be more creative development put into their design. I've seen one or two where all they've done is alter an entire original song by increasing or lowering the pitch. If they like it enough, they can take it further with creating proper voice alterations, original songs and videos etc. The page should not be a dump for experimental Vocaloids and left to gather dust. There are fan sites in Japanese and English supporting Fanmades, fanfiction etc. May be worth seeing if they would be interested in being linked from this Wiki. I'll get asking. ::I'll try adopting the weekly Vocaloid rankings page and i'll gurantee to keep it updated with new rankings, but back writing all past rankings will take time and of course there will be other projects to work on in the meantime.--Kaiseine 09:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC) ::For the reason of filtering out Vocaloids that don't perform (read: sing) or those that are abandoned, I initially made a Proposed Fanmade Vocaloids page. But yeah, there is a growing number that don't sing at all. But let's not forget or single out those that really want to promote theirs and those who actually make content. As the growing number of non-singings are growing, I'm pondering on ripping out the entire non-singing segment and reclassifying them as Vocaloid Mascots. Or Fanmade Vocaloid Mascots. ::Suggestion 1 appears to happen only on phenomenal cases. That would render 98% of all fanmades disqualified. Suggestion 2 is good, but sometimes details (and those who make configurations) are better placed in profile pages. It keeps the pages neat and concise. Also, configurations are placed in the profile pages, and the characteristics as well, which helps in accuracy when it comes to people writing stories, making PVs, using their voices, and such. Of course, those who actually "sing" should get these pages, though there can be exceptions. As much as all other crufty fanmades should be kept out, there are some that are unenlightened who do end up redeeming themselves later. (Rena and Mime comes to mind) That should be remembered as well. ::The Utate Mitta and Human Vocaloids should be spun off Fanmade Vocaloids as soon as possible. O Herman 11:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC) :::The Fanmade Vocaloid Mascot idea sounds great O Herman. That should keep both pages more concise. The Human Vocaloids certainly need their own page though these may be worth trawling through as well to find their legitimacy. I just picked one at random and tried to find details on her but all i found was a single image (which is used on this wiki), 2 poorly sung songs on youtube and the 'original character designer' despite being linked has no drawings or even mentions this character on their art blog. I'll spend some time this evening sorting the page ready to ship out some of the Fanmades and bring questionable Vocaloids to the discussion page so they can be defended by any fans/creators before they're cut.Kaiseine 16:22, 3 June 2009 (UTC) ::I think that Wiki article should be "public assets". Naturally, Wiki must mention things of public assets in first priority. In order to be recognised as "public assets", it is necessary for a fanmade character to be used by many authors and get many view counts. Therefore, I want to suggest those rules. ::Because of those unexperienced characters, important characters are buried. Why are not there individual articles of Tako Luka and Hachune, although there are the individual articles of the unexperienced personal characters? This badness of balance is the cause that much Vocaloid fans have been disappointed at this Wiki.--Ymiyass900 03:14, 4 June 2009 (UTC) ::Most information about Miku Hachune and Tako Luka are not available due in part, to the language barrier. (Don't get me started with the translating machines, some do a really bad job.) I wanted info for others that really needs them, like Akaito and Kaiko, but these are just as hard to come by. The unexpected characters you speak of have information readily available and retrievable. For this reason, someone must go forward and put up such pages. If you can supply me with information, links and more details about Hachune and Tako Luka, I will create the pages for them. O Herman 04:25, 4 June 2009 (UTC) :::Aren't you a member of Vocaloidotaku.net? About Tako Luka, please read this. If you can read Japanese and have an account of Nico, please read NicoNico Encyclopedia. About Hachune, please read NicoNico Encyclopedia. It is very likely that we take the wrong way when we collect informations only from the place that is easy to take in defiance of the demand of fans. It is necessary for the article writer to collect informations from the original anytime.--Ymiyass900 05:31, 4 June 2009 (UTC) ::::Yes I am, but I want as much information as I can get my hands on. And there may be suggestion from others too. The nicopedia thing... I'll get to work on that. O Herman ::If there's anything to deliberate before cutting off, it should be those listed in here. There are some crazy fanmades, some that are just absurd, to ones that could be potentially funny, like Duckpoid. (The only thing bleh about duckpoid is the backstory, but the config itself and the sample is lmaotastic.) O Herman 05:16, 4 June 2009 (UTC) ::Another thing: What article are we going to call programs that have been influenced by Vocaloid? That section needs to be spun off, unless we give each entries (except UTAU, which already has its own) individual entries. Nana Macne is apparently gaining recognition and may soon warrant a page for herself. O Herman 10:34, 4 June 2009 (UTC) :::If you feel she needs a page for herself, then go for it. A Vocaloid Inspired Software would probbably be best suited to them. Kaiseine 20:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC) ::::Hmm. Will Get that done. O Herman 11:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC) ::Seems someone has told the people over at Deviantart its ok to dump their vocaloid ideas on this Wiki. Theres been 6 different vocaloids uploaded to the Fanmade Vocaloid Mascots today alone linking to the site, 4 of which i've disabled code for. This Wiki cannot turn into a dumping ground for peoples vocaloid fan art. We've made excellent progress on the Fanmade Vocaloids page but if we're not carefull the Vocaloid Mascots will go down the same path. I'm not against people expressing their fan art and vocaloid fantasies, but catering that need is not what this site is about. I'm going to change link to Vocaloid Wiki:Proposed Fanmade Vocaloids rather than Fanmade Vocaloid Mascots. Obviously if Vocaloids relegated to this page increase in popularity and maybe even start singing, then they can easily be swaped to the other pages. Someones rough pencil sketch shouldn't be on the same page as Miku Hachune. Kaiseine 20:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC) :::Troubling as it may seem, there is indeed a thriving vocaloid-related community there. The problem is that their characters/product are sometimes too much of being unusual. Some are acceptable enough and others became notable enough that it has spawned some content of its own. (Naru Akita is one prime example of this.) But as we've seen, some are like, it came out of nowhere. Also, many of the fanmades exist for the literary side, and doesn't sing at all, though that sometimes becomes the breeding point for their song portfolios, as others picks it up and configures a voice for them. The other problem is that many of them are not established characters. O Herman 11:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC) ::::I'm certainly not against people expressing their ideas but this site is not a place for people to showcase their own works. If somone's work becomes popular enough, someone else will write an article on it. At least, thats how i understand Wikis to work. There are 1 or 2 that do come along and are real quality fanmades: case in point being Kiki Nomorou. She's got some great fanart, has numerous songs (albiet only covers at the moment, but thats still more than what most have) and she seems to have dozens of fans that arn't all part of the creators friends list. I'm kinda hoping the Proposed Fanmade Vocaloids page will get used more so people can actually get feedback on building their work up into something better. Afterall thats what a fanmade is about, having a community build upon them and making them grow. If you just intend on using your creation for your own use and nothing more it just becomes a Vocaloid based fan work. As it stands now it's all about linking to the creators website and getting them more views/friends. I'm all for the Wiki supporting the community and developing new ideas, but neither should it be a storage centre for unloved fanmades. Kaiseine 22:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC) :::::The real job now is telling those apart. Something I won't mind doing. Kiki is another of those fanmades that started out bad, but rebounded into something better. (But her author is leeching bandwidth in my imageboard.) O Herman 03:57, 8 June 2009 (UTC) :::::UPDATE: Those characters that came out of nowhere, claiming themselves as Fanmade Vocaloids but aren't based on a specific vocaloid are known as OC Vocaloids; OC being Original Characters. OCs are not exactly designed for singing, but are created as story characters or personal characters. As to why they found themselves in here is questionable at best. We now have an additional category. Rainbow Vocaloids are a prime example of these. Curiously, one of Minami's characters (of Chibi Miku-san fame) belongs here. O Herman 18:45, 8 June 2009 (UTC) ::I'd like to bring forward the issue of people taking out entries without reason. User:Ninayumi has been quite persistent in deleting entries without due reason while nourishing her own entry from the Voyakiloid. What do you think? O Herman 11:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC) :::This specific user is becoming a problem now. They have attempted deleting some fanmades (which O Herman reverted) and have moved around other vocaloids to different articles without reason. I think it may be time to start considering a ban on the users i.p. I've had a quick run through their history and almost all of it is either deletions, or unauthorised moves. Kaiseine 11:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC) The derived characters to which its producer merely applies the sound that changed the pitch of the sound source that other persons produced (and its producer doesn't use the Vocaloid software) are mere FAKE'''s. Such a derived characters should be deleted from this Wiki, I think strongly. The derived characters which do not yet sing are more better than such fakes.--Ymiyass900 00:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC) :There's such characters? Can you name them? O Herman 03:29, 12 June 2009 (UTC) ::In "Fanmade Vocaloids", these characters have only the voice which is produced by changing pitch of other sound sources ; :::Rena Tetsune, Kiki Nomrou, Taidane Nemui, Lin & Ren Haine, Ruru Megurine, Ruki Megurine, Lukas Megurine, Keko Kasane (this comes from UTAU). ::Those characters should be deleted, or at least they should be moved to not singing characters' article.--Ymiyass900 05:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC) ::::All right. Admittingly, Rena is too surreal, but she is supported by her creator (but I'll look into this more). Kiki... her initial samples are bad, but is she really an altered Miku that doesn't use Vocaloid? I'll observe her more. Lin and Ren hasn't made much new stuff, so I'll study that too for possible delisting. Lulu, Luki and Lucas sounds rushed in terms of creation and probably will end up being abandoned; I haven't heard of new stuff from them or in YouTube. Since Keko is a parody of Teto, she should be in UTAU wiki, I'm setting a day to clean that up since I'm producing a new song right now. Since their concepts haven't been fleshed out, they're more likely to be dumped to Proposed. Thanks for the headsup. O Herman 06:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC) :::::The articles written by the creator oneself must be doubted most because it is very likely that the objectivity which is most important for Wiki is lacking at them.--Ymiyass900 13:02, 12 June 2009 (UTC) ::::::Kaisene caught people doing that and has interrogated their work. I'll handle the others, especially Kiki and Rena. O Herman 06:27, 15 June 2009 (UTC) As for all of the fanmade characters which were pointed out on past day, there is not yet the presentation of the concrete works (the work which its producer of the video really produced by using Vocaloid software). Did not the writers of those articles read the instructions yet? --Ymiyass900 09:52, 25 June 2009 (UTC) :The config behind Rena has explained already in the Fanmade Vocaloids talkpage, Lucas has more work (but no config.) It seems only Rena and Lucas will survive. O Herman 10:00, 25 June 2009 (UTC) ::Rena and Lukas have not been explained at all. There is '''NO presentation of the specific example of works which their producer produced by using Vocaloid software actually. --Ymiyass900 10:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC) :::If that's the case, I think you should ask for that in the Fanmade Vocaloids talkpage. I'd do that right now, but I am currently at work and can't stay long. Rena's creator, lightdasher, is present here, I suggest you also talk to him-- thus far he's the only one willing to cooperate. Also, what does one need to show to prove that they indeed produced using vocaloid? O Herman 10:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC) Here, have a Rena Light dasher 12:28, 28 June 2009 (UTC) :Are you a creator of Rena? Don't you have Rena's VIDEO in which its author really used the Vocaloid software? Although I searched Rena's such video to keep Rena in that article, I found only fake videos in which the processed copy of the sound which other author produced was used. If there is not such video, Rena must be removed to Vocaloid Wiki:Proposed Fanmade Vocaloids or Fanmade Vocaloid Mascots. --Ymiyass900 13:08, 30 June 2009 (UTC) poke :Last time i'm going to tell you Lightdasher, sign your posts please. Thats a good start. Now she has a proper voice all she needs is some songs. I'd also advise removing the older renditions of Rena as a mere pitch change to avoid confusion, or at least label them as experiments. I'll remove Rena from the chopping block, just be sure to get some songs out (even covers of other songs count) within a couple of months. I'd also like to commend you for your diligence in this matter, its obvious you love your vocaloid very much and want to see them grow further. The vast majority of these vocaloids are simply abandoned here on the Wiki but you've shown you really want to make something out of Rena. Work hard and you and she will go far. Kaiseine 18:47, 2 July 2009 (UTC) Last time? more like first time =/ Just so you know, I've edited Rena's config a little here and there :3 *dances anyway* Light dasher 19:08, 2 July 2009 (UTC) Logo The Wiki lacks a logo right now and i've been giving it some thought inbetween getting other pages up and running. I can think of 2 immediatly obvious options; The vocaloid logo in silver metalic, or Miku Hatsune + the silver metalic vocaloid logo. Miku would be the best mascot for the Wiki because 1)S he's the most famous of the Vocaloids. 2) The colour scheme of the Wiki is based on her so she wouldn't clash with it. 3) It wouldn't be vocaloid without Miku. I was thinking of using either this image, mirrored with Mikus upper body visable and the vocaloid/wiki logo in the blank space beside here. Or this image with similar effect. Anybody else have some ideas? Kaiseine 21:42, 3 June 2009 (UTC) :Actually I changed the color scheme since the blue theme was to basic, I am still working on changing the skins look later on when I find a prefect background image for this wiki. I was going to make a logo, but screwed it since I was looking for free content at the time and not copyrighted so I can licence it under creative commons (Trying fair use now). I was suggested on IRC to use a popular mascot for the logo; I was going to use Hatsune Miku, but I wanted to ask community first, I guess this is the perfect time to do so now that we are grouped together on this page for logo suggestions. I like your silver metallic suggestion, I can probably make the wiki's background a little more grey or something similar. Maybe when can use File:Program_mikukiss.jpg for the background as well or another similar image since I gave a numerous Miku images I downloaded. I am sure I have a larger version and resize it for the background. Anymore logo, background, wiki skin style suggestions? Antonio Lopez (talk) 02:41, 4 June 2009 (UTC) :Yamaha owes a big thing to Miku, she's the one who placed Vocaloid on the limelight. Hence, Miku should be the defacto mascot of the program. O Herman 03:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC) :Seeing as though no-one has any other suggestions i think its fair to go with the Miku + metalic vocaloid text. You still working on this Antonio or want me to give the logo wiki a call? Kaiseine 10:21, 16 June 2009 (UTC) :: I asked the kind people over at the logo wiki and gave them some pictures and text to work with. The result was this. I rather like it. What do you guys think? Kaiseine 15:22, 27 June 2009 (UTC) :::Use the fonts as used in the vocaloid logo. O Herman 15:24, 27 June 2009 (UTC) ::::It's the same font used for the Japanese Vocaloid logo, but its not capitalised. Want me to get that changed? The colour change is there simply because white on white wouldn't work too well. Or are you refering to the English vocaloid logo? Kaiseine 15:41, 27 June 2009 (UTC) :::::Hmm... use all caps. Try some background gradients, and try playing around with the name logo positioning. O Herman 15:43, 27 June 2009 (UTC) :::::I'll ask about the caps, shouldn't be a big issue. As for the background its opaque so it'll go over any background colour well. I can't really try out naming positions since its not me making the image, its the guys over at the Logo Wiki and they tend to work by suggestions. if you have a rough idea of what you think might fit i could always pass it along. Kaiseine 16:05, 27 June 2009 (UTC) :::::Here's the logo with capital text. Kaiseine 14:51, 29 June 2009 (UTC) ::::::I'd like some more feedback please so i can either continue with the open request on the logo wiki or close it.Kaiseine 15:47, 1 July 2009 (UTC) :::::::Upload it on Image:Wiki.png to update the wiki logo. Antonio Lopez (talk) 20:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC) Official Character Profiles I am leaning onto the idea of making character profile pages for the official characters, for the following reasons: # There is sufficient official information about this, and other aspects are supplied by fanon, which has a surprisingly united concensus. (This is actually true with Miku, including a lot of Kei Garou's depictions, which can be considered as good as canon.) # Like with what Ymiyass900 has been adding in the individual character profiles for the derivatives, it gives a place to properly list song rosters. Moreso with the official characters. # With properly written and official information, we can help users keep character portrayal accurate, removing most or all guessworks when it comes to character information. # There is similar interest with such information, but for the english vocaloids. There's many fanon catering to this, which has majority concensus on a unified portrayal. For this purpose, links for such will be written as Miku Hatsune (character) to indicate it is a character profile. O Herman 04:19, 7 June 2009 (UTC) :I've been giving a bit of thought about this and i'm more inclined towards leaving the current character pages as is with links to seperate song rosters and 3rd party material. Otherwise you'll end up with sparse information spatered around. There'll be the original page for the vocaloid character program itself, then you'll have the character page mostly concerning fandom, then a song roster page etc. Maybe its because i've always been partial to large, informative articles but i just have visisons of Miku's page turning into something like Kaitos. Kaiseine 10:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)